Editing OpenCircuits:Community portal

Welcome to Open Circuits.
This is a good place to talk about Open Circuits, as a whole.

We have {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} articles now. Yay!

== Help, noob looking to get into electronics ==

I want to create an open hardware smartphone... but I don't know anything about electronics... yet...
Someone care to help? I just need to be pointed in the right direction

I'm guessing i just need to create some sort of small computer running linux??

Thanks =)


--[[User:RenatoFontes|RenatoFontes]] 00:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


Yes. the components for a smartphone board are really small so no one has figured out how to build one. My suggestion? Make one with a beagleboard or raspberry pi as a mainboard instead. Both boards are small and low voltage and linux which would be a great smartphone base. that is your best bet, btw it requires moderate electronics know how to rig up a touchscreen. You should get started familiarizing yourself with whatever electronics knowledge that you can find too.
             -Quinn (quinn.vinlove@gmail.com)

Yes. The components for a smartphone board are really small, but lots of people have figured out how to build one -- see [[Open Mobile Gadgets]] for a list.

In particular, the Tux phone [http://www.wired.com/gadgets/wireless/multimedia/2007/10/gallery_linux_phones?slide=5&slideView=6] [http://www.flickr.com/photos/julianbleecker/225599650/] and the more polished-looking Openmoko FreeRunner  [http://openmoko.org/] [http://www.mobilegazette.com/openmoko-neo-freerunner-08x06x26.htm]
have open hardware and open software.

It's possible to build a small computer running Linux "from scratch" -- see [[motherboards that run Linux]] for some people who have done just that.
Perhaps you can use one of those smartphone hardware or other motherboard hardware as-is?
Or perhaps with a few blue-wires?
Or perhaps you could at least download the schematics and tweak the design for your new PCBs, rather than starting entirely from scratch?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 16:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

== Upgrade to Mediawiki 1.15.1 ==

Mediawiki has been upgraded to version 1.15.1 ([http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-announce/2009-July/000087.html release notes]).

Please test your favorite MediaWiki functionality and use this page to report any issues you come across.

[[User:Chazegh|Chazegh]] 23:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

== free digital TV converter box coupon ==

https://www.dtv2009.gov/

== Anti-Vandalism Bot ==

''moved to our page discussing [[Spam]].''

== electrical mailing lists ==
Yahoo claims they have
[http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/dir/Science/Engineering/Electrical 1,831 electrical engineering mailing lists].
What would be a good way of letting the people on those lists know about the Open Circuits wiki, without spamming them?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 13:30, 31 May 2006 (PDT)

* Publish cold fusion howto :-)
* Send one email/week and only once per list. And be on topic, listen carefully for responses.
[[User:Freqmax|Freqmax]] 16:24, 30 July 2007 (PDT)

== about Open Circuits ==
So, is there any connection between http://OpenCircuits.org/ , http://OpenCircuits.net/ , and this http://OpenCircuits.com/ wiki?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 23:47, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

No. There is no connection between any of http://opencircuits.com and the other websites listed.
[[User:Chazegh|Chazegh]] 02:55, 18 June 2006 (PDT)
== web rings ==
Document an original microcontroller project and join a PIC webring, or AVR webring.  20 June 2006

== audio electronics ==

Is there some other wiki for people to talk about audio electronics?
Or is this Open Circuits the best wiki for talking about things like
''"[http://analog.com/ Analog Devices] AN-221: The Alexander current-feedback audio power amplifier"'' by Mark Alexander
?

I think I would prefer to offload all the audio electronics controversies to some other wiki
(but which one?).
Still, it would be nice to have some "tips for high-power electronics" here.
I imagine that tips page would list the various quirks of high-power MOSFETs, BJTs, TRIACs, and IGBTs,
and (given a particular motor or speaker or other load)
how to select one over the others,
and various ways of working around those quirks.
--[[User:65.70.89.241|65.70.89.241]] 07:17, 10 August 2006 (PDT)

I just joined Open Circuits.  I have been servicing and designing audio equipment for several years (Recording consoles a specialty) I hope you will have a section for audio electronics.  I also work with video projection systems and theatrical lighting (stage struck at an early age) I play electric rock-blues guitar, so I also am interested in tube guitar amps (Marshall and Boogie).  And there is a big difference in what a guitar player thinks an amp should do, and what a recording engineer wants an amp for.  I think these are valid points for discussion.
I've also got an interest in power supplies (my experience is mostly with linear, but I've started learning about switching designs).  In fact that brings me to my question, I have some regulator  designs based on the 723 that I'd like to share.  How do I go about doing that?  I built a replacement for a console  /- 18V @6A supply when I couldn't find the original regulator devices.  I used 723s with external series pass devices.  The unit has been working for close to 10 years now, so I think the design is worth sharing.  Is anyone interested? 

I also research discrete op amps like the Jensen 990.  I've been working (on and off for years) on a clone of that using more modern, easily available parts and devices.  Anyone else?
Finally, in response to the first entry in this section, I too read that application note in Analog Devices Audio/Video Reference Manual.  My copy is dated 1992.  I've repaired a lot of amplifiers, but haven't built any.  If anyone else is hip to this amp I'd like to hear about it.  It is a very unique design.  I also like the A75 amp design from Nelson Pass and Norman Thagard, and the Leach Amp by Marshall Leach.  The last two are pretty normal as far as design goes, not as adventurous as the Alexander with its current-feedback approach.
Aloha, RAF--[[User:66.8.194.185|66.8.194.185]] 14:04, 18 May 2007 (PDT)

== automotive electronics ==

Is there some other wiki for people to talk about automobile electronics?
Or is this Open Circuits the best wiki for talking about things like
[http://megamanual.com/ "experimental Do-It-Yourself programmable electronic fuel injection controller"]?
Or should we just point people who want to talk ECUs (engine control units) to the 
[http://msefi.com/ MSEFI discussion forum],
even though it sadly lacks a wiki?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 22:36, 2 July 2007 (PDT)

How about converting a car to EV - Electrical vehicle, how to build an electrical motor controller? DC or 3-phase AC controller..
Mr. Holland



'''Bold text'''I am interested with you. I have some experience with some small robotics project and some motor projects. I am also interested in electrical vehicle. Just post next step here.

== inviting bloggers to open circuits ==

=== how to connect a JTAG probe to a Nokia phone ===

I'd like to invite bloggers such as GyrosGeier to edit OpenCircuits.
Rather than just spamming him, I think he would be more inclined to help out
if we answered one of his questions first -- such as
[http://hogyros.de/?q=node/167 "If you have information on how to connect a JTAG probe to a Nokia phone, please let me know."]
Maybe I should start a page on [[JTAG]]...
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 09:37, 22 September 2006 (PDT)

The [http://hackedgadgets.com/ Hacked Gadgets blog also has a bunch of cool electronics].
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 11:58, 5 January 2007 (PST)

== red links ==

The default skin at OpenCircuits currently has "red links" = page exists, "dark red links" = page does not exist.

I find that confusing. (But not as bad as the wiki that has some links black-on-white, indistinguishable from normal text).

'''work-around''': Register (it's free, and you don't have to give any personal information), then choose the "preferences" link in the far upper-right corner and then pick any other skin.

The other skins have coloring that you may be more used to from other wiki: "blue links" = page exists, "red links" = page does not exist.

--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 08:58, 18 December 2006 (PST)

The colors are better in the other skins, but the navigation is worse. 
How about a new skin that is like the default when it comes to navigation, but uses the normal wiki colors? // [[User:Cj|Cj]] 06:45, 4 October 2008 (PDT) 



*** Guys, the red color on links is AwuFul, it brings ppl headaches.
That's the only reason I cant participate ***

--[[User:Takeda|Takeda]] 16:38, 29 September 2007 (PDT)

== inviting people from other forums to open circuits ==

Lots of people talk about circuits for LED lighting at
http://candlepowerforums.com/
.
Perhaps we can talk some of them into contributing here -- perhaps using a page or two of Open Circuits as a FAQ for LEDs and drive circuits.

== tool lists ==

Should we have an entire page on "tools", and mention it on the main page?
That risks listing *every* tool anyone has ever heard about,
like the page at
http://massmind.org/techref/tools.htm
.
Yes, I'm responsible for uglier bits on that page;
I think the wide variety of oscilloscopes are particularly confusing.
How could we cut through the confusion?

I see the "techniques" page already has a list of software tools.
Perhaps it would be nifty to have a short list of all the tools necessary for each technique?
Then a beginner would have a better idea of what tools he really needs to get (rather than looking at a huge list of every tool, and wondering for each one, ''"Am I going to regret buying it when I see it gathering dust? Or am I going to regret not buying it when I need it during a midnight debug session?"'').

--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 08:37, 24 January 2007 (PST)

== Requests For Help ==
Thanks for your help with the camcorder mic.

== sample component ==

What is the purpose of the [[Sample Component]] ?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 16:27, 7 May 2007 (PDT)

----


== current surge and battery life ==

Hi, 

currently my board is using a 3V battery, in every 40msec it will turn on its RF to communicate with the base station. I face a problem here is that my battery life is badly affected. Turning on the RF with cause a current surge. 

Will this surge affect my battery life? If I use a supercapacitor does it helps?

-- [[User:203.120.164.208]] 04:14, 30 April 2007


== MIDI electrical interface ==

In my opinion, the MIDI interface got a lot of things right that too many later interfaces still trip over.

* http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MIDI.html -- ASCII schematics
* http://www.engadget.com/2005/08/30/how-to-control-csound-with-a-custom-midi-controller-hardware/ -- hand-sketched schematics
* http://www.midi.org/about-midi/electrical.shtml "MIDI Electrical Specification Diagram &amp; Proper Design of Joystick/MIDI Adapters" -- well-drawn schematics
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_MIDI_1.0_Protocol Wikipedia: The MIDI 1.0 Protocol]
* http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Behringer_FCB1010_MIDI_Pedal

It may look simple, but too often people try to "improve" it by adding or removing things without understanding, ending up with a worse system.

Is there any other wiki that is more appropriate for explaining the low-level details of the MIDI electrical interface, and *why* it was done that way?

I would be most interested in discussing new communication interfaces -- but is this really the right wiki?
Or would http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Serial_Programming or the [http://interwiki.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/picawiki.pl/StartingPoint PICA wiki] be better for discussing improvements?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 13:21, 21 June 2007 (PDT)

== IC design ==

What do you think about
http://makeyourownchip.com/
?
Should we talk about VLSI design ([http://david.carybros.com/html/vlsi.html "VLSI: designing electronic chips"])
here at Open Circuits?
Or is there a more appropriate wiki somewhere else?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 15:59, 26 June 2007 (PDT)

== electronics infoline ==

So have you seen
"Free electronics projects"
http://electronicsinfoline.com/
"with Photo Preview"
?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 00:28, 1 July 2007 (PDT)

And you will be  interested in  
"online circuit diagrams creation"
http://www.dz863.com/
"for free"
?

== generating a netlist with a "C++" program ==

The [http://positron.ps.uci.edu/~pier/csc/sup/Support.html "Support Electronics for ATLAS Muon CSC"] documentation claims that [http://positron.ps.uci.edu/~pier/csc/sup/CRB_LayoutNotes0.pdf "The design was captured with C++. There are no schematics."] and lists [http://positron.ps.uci.edu/~pier/csc/sup/crb_srce the C++ source code].

How did they do that?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 01:15, 3 July 2007 (PDT)

== rocket electronics ==

Is there another wiki that talks about rocket electronics?
Or is this Open Circuits the best place to talk about
ground support electronics
(such as [http://www.ukrocketman.com/rocketry/controller.shtml Launch Controller]s)
and 
onboard electronics
(such as one
[http://www.ukrocketman.com/rocketry/compactrdasguide.shtml flight computer]
or another
[http://david.carybros.com/html/schematic.html#flight_computer flight computer]
)?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 14:21, 15 July 2007 (PDT)

Hey David,

In case you haven't heard of it for some strange reason, [http://www.hackaday.com Hack-a-Day] has 
featured a fair number of rocketry projects over the years, and many of their articles on said 
projects link back to the original project webpages.

--[[User:Purduecer|Purduecer]] 13:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

== Minimig ==
I have created pages about the [[Minimig]] project which is running an Amiga 500 in a Xilinx FPGA. It's rather a work in progress, than a static documentation. I hope nobody minds. [[User:Freqmax|Freqmax]] 18:35, 27 July 2007 (PDT)

== Open Science ==

So does/should Open Science ( http://openscience.org/ ) have any relation to Open Circuits ?
--[[User:68.0.120.35|68.0.120.35]] 00:13, 5 August 2007 (PDT)

== LaTEX math markup ==

I wrote a quick howto on figuring out resistor values, but it looks bad without latex math markup enabled.
Here's what I wrote as it appears on open circuits:  http://www.opencircuits.com/Talk:Relays
Here's how it appears on wikipedia (with math markup enabled):  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mzandrew/Sandbox

Anyone know if this is a quick thing to enable for open circuits or if it's involved?

[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:16, 8 September 2007 (PDT)

<div style="clear:both;border:1px dotted #333;padding:10px;background:#FFE400;color:#333;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;">DONE! -- [[User:Chazegh|Chazegh]] 00:10, 11 March 2008 (PDT)</div>

----

'''SPAM DELETED!'''

I deleted a whole bunch of links that had been placed at the top of this page, probably by the same AH that did it to my page.  I think the best solution would be to make it so no edits are possible without being logged in.  Then there will be a record of who does this kind of thing.  Then they can be banned from the site.  I don't think that defeats the purpose of an open wiki environment, it simply means you have to register to contribute.

--[[User:RogerAF|RAF]] 10:30, 21 December 2007 (PST)

At least this page is still OK.  The Spam AHole hit my user talk page again today.  This is very aggravating.

--[[User:RogerAF|RAF]] 06:54, 22 December 2007 (PST)

: ''I agree. Annoying. I'm starting to "semi-protect" most pages so they can only be edited by logged-in users. I'm leaving a couple of pages wide open as a honeypot and/or test pages, so I can make tests and ban spammers without touching good pages. I think the $wgSpamRegex and/or ReCAPTCHA would be a better way to deal with spam. But my attempt to set them up isn't working yet. Sorry. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 10:28, 3 January 2008 (PST)''

== Release 2.0 ==

[http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/12/new_release_20_3.html New Release 2.0: Open Source Hardware] by Jimmy Guterman

Does Guterman know about Open Circuits yet?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 01:04, 4 January 2008 (PST)

== tech-assist ==

Should we invite the nice people at tech-assist
http://tech-assist.org/
to use the Open Circuits wiki?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 20:38, 15 January 2008 (PST)

== A post I left at the Schmartboard mailing list. ==

Last week I posted to the Schmartboard mailing list asking about more interface types for their system.
I made reference to sites like this and pleaded the case of individuals wishing to make projects that interface a little better than the methods available now. Neal Greenburg(VP in sales) replied that they had been kicking ideas around like what I was proposing for a while, and that he would like to get some feedback. So, if you're interested, head on over and pipe in. The basic request I made was asking for common internal pc interfaces(PCI, PCI-e, AGP, ISA, etc..) to be included as an attachable module.

The reason for my request was that this would allow organizations such as this one to develop hardware that is now unachievable at a decent prototyping price(quantities in the single digits). Their modules allow robust SMD hardware to be hand soldered and connected to other modules, but interfacing to a pc or other system is limited to rs232. I left a much more in depth post there, and if you're interested, you can find it there.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/schmartboardsv/

I'm not affiliated with schmartboard in any other way than as a customer. I'm sorry if this is seen as spam, it's not intended to be. If the general consensus is that this is spam, feel free to delete it.

Thanks for your time, take care.
[[User:Jonkopp|Jonkopp]] 13:49, 20 January 2008 (PST)

: Making it easier to build common interfaces sounds great. There's a brief mention of Schmartboards at [[Techniques#Circuit construction .28Prototyping - Other than custom PCB.29]]. Would you like a [[Schmartboard]] page for people to unofficially suggest which Schmartboard fits which SMT package, and -- for those things that don't fit well with any current Schmartboard -- to propose new layouts?
: I suspect that the special techniques required for high-speed computer buses ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/reflected-wave_switching reflected-wave switching], transmission lines, etc.) are not really achievable with prototyping boards, and so require full-custom PCBs.
: I think the USB interface, the 30-pin SIMM form factor (for designing [http://www.uclinux.org/ucsimm/ uCsimm]-like boards), etc. could use a Schmartboard.
: --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 05:55, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

== open source machine ==

Is there some other wiki somewhere that would be better for discussing "open source hardware designs" for non-electronic mechanical hardware, such as
http://opensourcemachine.org/
?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 05:52, 26 June 2008 (PDT)
:: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing :-) 2008-11-28

== confused ==

What is up with
[[User talk:Sunnyhouselife]], [[User talk:Kaylee]], [[User talk:Seekic]]
?
I'm guessing that English is not their native language.
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 08:08, 10 July 2008 (PDT)

== ultrasonic ==

Is there a better wiki to discuss [[ultrasonic]] stuff?
Such as:
[http://www.brooker.co.za/fers/ "FERS: the Flexible, Extensible Radar and Sonar Simulator."]

== COSHER ==

"COSHER stands for Completely Open Source, Headers, Engineering, and Research."
-- http://wearcam.org/cosher.htm

Can we apply COSHER to [[open hardware]], or does it only apply to software?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 04:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

== Quad Helicopter ==

Hello, I am starting a project to build a multi-rotor helicopter (starting with a 4 motor one and moving up). I am planning on developing everything from scratch. If you are a software programmer (linux), or a mechanical engineer, and want to help out with the project let me know! I got a site where the progress can be tracked and coordinated, http://wwww.quadheli.com

Cheers!

Sounds like a cool project.
Would it help to make a wiki page for it at [[multi-rotor]]?
--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 17:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

----

[http://nmg.thecomicseries.com/comics/133 indieVisible] --
Originally they started as a nonpolitical open hardware movement for DIY people using advanced minifacturing (3D printing and so on).


[[Category:Community| ]]
@@ Line 88: / Line 88: @@
 Finally, in response to the first entry in this section, I too read that application note in Analog Devices Audio/Video Reference Manual.  My copy is dated 1992.  I've repaired a lot of amplifiers, but haven't built any.  If anyone else is hip to this amp I'd like to hear about it.  It is a very unique design.  I also like the A75 amp design from Nelson Pass and Norman Thagard, and the Leach Amp by Marshall Leach.  The last two are pretty normal as far as design goes, not as adventurous as the Alexander with its current-feedback approach.
 Aloha, RAF--[[User:66.8.194.185|66.8.194.185]] 14:04, 18 May 2007 (PDT)
-The [http://www.sdiy.info SDIY wiki] should cover audio electronics, but it's early days yet. -- [[User:Robkam|Robkam]] 10:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 == automotive electronics ==
@@ Line 110: / Line 108: @@
 == inviting bloggers to open circuits ==
-== how to connect a JTAG probe to a Nokia phone ==
+=== how to connect a JTAG probe to a Nokia phone ===
 I'd like to invite bloggers such as GyrosGeier to edit OpenCircuits.
@@ Line 133: / Line 131: @@
 --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 08:58, 18 December 2006 (PST)
-:The other skins are malware. Google Chrome warns "Content from removevirusgadget.com, a known malware distributor, has been inserted into this web page. Visiting this page now is very likely to infect your computer with malware". -- [[User:Robkam|Robkam]] 23:02, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 The colors are better in the other skins, but the navigation is worse.
 How about a new skin that is like the default when it comes to navigation, but uses the normal wiki colors? // [[User:Cj|Cj]] 06:45, 4 October 2008 (PDT)
 *** Guys, the red color on links is AwuFul, it brings ppl headaches.
@@ Line 143: / Line 141: @@
 --[[User:Takeda|Takeda]] 16:38, 29 September 2007 (PDT)
-Redlinks defies convention and is confusing, making the wiki awkward for users. blue=link, red=dead link, violet=followed link. -- [[User:Robkam|Robkam]] 10:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 == inviting people from other forums to open circuits ==
@@ Line 209: / Line 205: @@
 Or would http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Serial_Programming or the [http://interwiki.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/picawiki.pl/StartingPoint PICA wiki] be better for discussing improvements?
 --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 13:21, 21 June 2007 (PDT)
-You're welcome to add/edit any relevant article at [http://www.sdiy.info SDIY wiki]. At this stage you might also have to add parent articles to get your topic connected, to the rest of the wiki. -- [[User:Robkam|Robkam]] 10:56, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 == IC design ==
@@ Line 374: / Line 368: @@
 --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 17:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
-== yet another open hardware movement ==
+----
 [http://nmg.thecomicseries.com/comics/133 indieVisible] --
 Originally they started as a nonpolitical open hardware movement for DIY people using advanced minifacturing (3D printing and so on).
-== Contests ==
-Do you have any ideas for contests or challenges that OpenCircuits could host or sponsor?
-Do you have any tips for running challenges here on OpenCircuits --
-such as [[Salvage Challenge - Make Me Spin]] --
-and making them better?
---[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] ([[User talk:DavidCary|talk]]) 07:32, 25 September 2014 (PDT)
-== Upgrade glitch ==
-Recently the Open Circuits backend software was upgraded,
-leading to every page on the Wiki displaying the message
-''"Warning: preg_match(): Compilation failed: group name must start with a non-digit at offset 8 in /home/opencircuitsadmin/opencircuitsmediawiki/includes/MagicWord.php on line 872"''
-and none of the content -- neither text nor images -- was visible.
-(It is unclear to me if this was caused by the recent upgrade to MediaWiki or the recent upgrade to PHP).
-As recommended by
-https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60640
-and
-http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20905654/all-my-mediawiki-pages-are-blank
-,
-I applied the page from
-https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/122450/
-(the file
-https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/122450/1/includes/MagicWord.php
-)
-and that mostly seemed to fix it.
---[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] ([[User talk:DavidCary|talk]]) 20:58, 7 November 2015 (PST)
-=== How you can help ===
-Alas, the above upgrade left a few pages on OpenCircuits that appear to have no content -- no text or image on the page, only the normal header, footer, sidebar that you see on every page.
-If you find such a page, please append "?action=purge" (without the quotes)
-to the URL in your URL bar.
-The purge should fix it -- you should see the content of the page.
-Thank you.
---[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] ([[User talk:DavidCary|talk]]) 20:58, 7 November 2015 (PST)
-== BOLTS is an Open Library of Technical Specifications ==
-"The aim of BOLTS is to build a free and open-source standard parts library for CAD applications."[http://www.bolts-library.org/]
-What can the people at Open Circuits do to help the open-hardware BOLTS project and vice versa?
---[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] ([[User talk:DavidCary|talk]]) 06:23, 13 November 2015 (PST)
 [[Category:Community| ]]